Grand Jury Testimony Excerpts/Francis Sayre/12-22-48
Only appearance
(Presented by Thomas J. Donegan, Special Assistant to the Attorney General, and Raymond Whearty, Assistant U.S. Attorney)
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BY MR. DONEGAN:
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Q Now, Mr. Sayre, you are appearing before this Grand Jury in response to a subpoena which has been served upon you; is that correct?
A. It is correct. I landed from a steamer coming back from Europe only on Sunday [December 20]; and I felt that, if it were agreeable to the Grand Jury, I ought to go to Washington first to get copies of some of the papers which are pertinent to this case and have a chance to look at them before I gave testimony.
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Q Now, Mr. Sayre, you have talked with the FBI and the FBI made available to you copies of documents which have been referred to as the “Chambers documents.” In other words, there are two groups; documents that were turned over by Mr. Chambers to his attorneys on November 17, 1948, at Baltimore, at a pre-trial deposition; and another group of documents which are referred to as the “pumpkin documents,” more properly photographs. Now, you had occasion to examine those with the FBI?
A Yes.
Q Now, will you, if you can, in this manner, advise the Grand Jury as to the results of your examination and what you told the FBI?
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BY MR. DONEGAN:
Q Have you had any conversations with Mr. Marbury [the attorney for Alger Hiss]?
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A I arrived home in Washington in the afternoon, I think about past three in the afternoon on Sunday. I had a telephone call from Mr. Marbury, who lives, as you know, in Baltimore, asking if he could see me before – he had to be in Boston the following day, and so he asked if he could come down to Washington and see me, and then catch the Federal Express up from Washington, and I said yes, I would be glad to see him, and he came to my house.
Of course, I was eager to hear about this questioning of Mr. Chambers in Baltimore, and I asked him to tell me about the questioning down there, and Mr. Marbury proceeded to do so.
I suppose I talked with him perhaps an hour and a half, … I have also talked with people in the State Department, particularly, with Mr. Gross, the Legal Adviser there, and some of his assistants, …
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… I left America August 8th last … so that all I knew about it was what I happened to see in such papers as I could get hold of in Paris.
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BY MR. WHEARTY:
Q Did you have any conversation concerning the merits of the matter?
A I asked Mr. Marbury a question which is terribly confidential, but I would be glad to tell you exactly.
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BY MR. DONEGAN:
Q As far as lawyer’s privilege is concerned, you were not associated in any way with Mr. Marbury in handling the case for Mr. Hiss, so I don’t have that you have to be concerned about the lawyer’s questions to you.
A And this is entirely in secret, anyhow, isn’t it?
Q Yes, sir, it is entirely confidential.
A You may be asking me later as to my size-up of Alger Hiss’ character. Personally, up until the time I left this country on August 8th, I had every confidence in Mr. Hiss, and never doubted his integrity of character. Then I read all of these things in the papers while I was in Paris.
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When I came back, and Mr. Marbury comes to see me, one of the questions which I wanted to put to him was: “Do you still believe in Alger Hiss; have you entire confidence in him?” and his answer was, “Yes.” Now, I was very eager to get that reaction of his.
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BY MR. WHEARTY:
Q Did you discuss the facts of the case, or merely opinions or impressions of it, Mr. Sayre?
A Do you mean Saturday night or Sunday night?
Q Were there any details of the facts of the case discussed at this Sunday night conversation? …
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… We can well conceive that you and many others could well believe it inconceivable that Hiss could have done any of these things, and we can well appreciate that any number of people can come and testify about his good character. The only trouble with character witnesses is that they are not in a position to know what went on. … they do not know what went on outside.
Now, what would help us is anything in the way of facts which came to your attention, which would help the jury. … How did the documents get out of the State Department, and did Hiss have access to them, and did Hiss take them?
A I would like very much to swing into that, if I may.
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BY MR. DONEGAN:
Q Now, Mr. Sayre, you have some documents there?
A I have.
Q What kind of documents are they?
A These are purported copies of the two groups of documents – the Baltimore documents and the “pumpkin” documents, if I may characterize them as such.
Q And for the purposes of the record, where did you obtain those copies?
A I obtained the copies from the Department of State. When I was talking with the Department of State officials on Monday morning, I asked if they couldn’t give me copies of those documents.
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A Yes. Now, when I obtained copies, from the State Department, of these documents which had been released, I went through them and sorted them out, and I think there are certain very interesting facts developed.
In the first place, there is one group of documents, I believe, all of which were among the Baltimore
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papers, which consist of telegrams. Confidential telegrams which were sent either from or to the State Department. …
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BY MR. WHEARTY:
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Q You say they were confidential, Mr. Sayre. Do you mean they were so classified by the State Department in 1938?
A There were different types here….
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A I see one here marked “Strictly Confidential.” I see another here not marked “Confidential.” There were some which were extremely confidential and others not.
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Q Were all of the telegrams such that they would have been transmitted in code?
A I believe so. I can’t answer that of positive knowledge, but I would be very much surprised if any of these had been transmitted not in code.
Q As I understand it, you have two or more sets of codes in the State Department, is that correct?
A More than two.
Q There are five, aren’t there?
… I am speaking as of 1938, yes.
A I can’t say how many there were. There was the Gray Code, which was the least confidential.
Q Did other nations had any knowledge of that code?
A It was believed by many of us that some of the other Governments did have knowledge of it, and we would not use that code for transmitting extremely confidential material.
Q You had no reason to believe that any of the other State Department codes were known to any other nations, did you?
A No. May I just add to that, that we have no reason to know or believe that the Gray Code was known, but it was used so often, so constantly for such routine things, that we thought it was quite possible
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that other Governments would know it.
Q In other words, no great damage would ensue if the Gray Code were known to other nations?
A Of course, we were not advertising our code. We don’t want it understood that we were using a code which was useless and which was well known. All I mean to say is that some of our codes were more guarded than others, and the Gray Code was the least confidential of the lot.
Q Can you say, from your examination of the telegrams, whether or not other codes than the Gray Code were used for their transmission?
A Yes. Some of them were.
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BY MR. DONEGAN:
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Q I would like again to refer to the five small pieces of paper, on which there appear handwriting. With reference to the pieces of paper, which you have already examined, what explanation can you offer, as being the superior of Mr. Hiss, as to why he would write these notations?
In other words, for the purpose of the record, I will say that they are in the handwriting of Mr. Hiss. Now will you tell the Grand Jury what explanation there might be?
A I cannot give you an explanation of them. Now, it was our practice in the State Department often to make little penciled memoranda, giving the reaction of the individual who read a long cable or a document or a file, giving his reaction on what should be done, or whether the paper was correct, in the procedure which it suggested.
And those little penciled memoranda, which were similar in appearance to those, would often be attached to the file as it passed from division to division in the State Department.
These particular papers which you showed me do not bear that character. That is to say, these papers
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are not comments on a file or on a memorandum. These are rather, as I saw them, apparently digests of telegrams.
As you showed me those yesterday, I did not recognize or remember having seen any one of those particular memoranda. On the other hand, the number of telegrams pouring into my office was so great that I had to have somebody sieve those telegrams and give to me the important ones, and in certain cases, if they were long telegrams or memoranda, often tell me what they were and whether in their opinion I should read them or not.
It is possible that those particular memoranda which you referred to might have been digested by Mr. Hiss after reading the original, so that he could tell me in a few words what the memorandum contained. Not that he would show me or pass to me those specific memoranda, but possibly that he would digest it for his own purposes, so that in handing me a stack of telegrams he might just glance at his little digest and say, “Well, this telegram is about so-and-so; I don’t think you have to read that.” “This telegram is about so-and-so; perhaps you better get after that.” And so on and so forth.
Now, I have no recollection of those specific papers, but I merely tell you what our practice was for what it may be worth.
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Q I would like to refer to one, specifically, and I will show you the copy of this here. It refers to what I believe to be military information. Now, you were not interested in military information?
A I was not. That is, those memoranda which you showed me yesterday did not relate to trade matters.
Q Consequently, is there any explanation as to why Mr. Hiss – and I am speaking to you as his superior – is there any explanation in the conduct of your office as to why Mr. Hiss should write this memorandum – and I am referring to this one, with reference to the French airplane?
A Yes. Only such possible explanation as I have already given, that here was this stack of cables, and it is possible that he wrote this memorandum digesting a cable which had come in, which he would feel it unnecessary for me to read in detail, and he would tell me in a few words what it was about, refreshing his mind to do so with this memorandum. I don’t remember this specific memorandum, but I am giving this as a possible explanation.
Q He would know that you were not interested in military information -
A And therefore need not go through a long telegram.
Q But also, would it follow that, knowing that you were not interested in military information, it would
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not be necessary to make such a long digest – referring to the French airplane matter, and the military point of view in Indo-China?
A Of course, when you say I was not interested – I had to be interested in everything that pertained to developments going along, because when it came to the matters I was handling – economic and trade matters – you had to know about the military matters in order to make wise decisions; so that although it wasn’t in my immediate field, it was nevertheless information which I ought to know about, so that there is that possible explanation.
Q We realize that it is a possible explanation. In other words, what the Grand Jury is trying to determine, of course, is that you, as head of that particular part of the State Department, and since Mr. Hiss was directly under you — we are trying to get any explanation that you might have as to why they should be written, especially since you were not concerned with military information; and there is a notation in Mr. Hiss’ handwriting – and rather lengthy for a digest, it appear to me -
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in other words, it concerns a number of French airplanes, if you will read it through, and I would like to have your comments on it, if you would be interested in that particular type of information.
A It would not fall within the direct line of my activities. It would be background information. Now, as I say, I don’t remember this memorandum at all, and when you ask my comment as to what possible explanation there can be for this, I can only offer the grand jury such a possible explanation as I have given. I have no distinct recollection of any detailed – of this specific memorandum at all. So far as I know, I never saw it.
JUROR: May I ask, roughly, about how many words there are on that telegram, on that memoranda?
The WITNESS: It is, I should say, two-thirds of that page and one-third of the succeeding page.
JUROR: Would you call that a long or short memorandum?
THE WITNESS: I wouldn’t call it long. I was a little surprised when Mr. Donegan did. We often would do memoranda of two or three and sometimes four of these little memoranda pad sheets.
JUROR: That would all depend if you were interested in the subject or not?
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THE WITNESS: Yes.
[BY MR. DONEGAN]
Q Would you consider it long for the fact that you were not interested in the subject matter?
A Perhaps. I have no comment, really, on that.
Q I am again going back to the fact that you were interested primarily in economic matters.
A That’s true.
Q And that’s not an economic matter?
A That’s true.
Q And Mr. Hiss has written what I consider a rather lengthy digest of a material matter in which you are not interested?
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JUROR: May we ask in regard to the pencil notations, what was done with them after they were brought to your attention, filed, thrown in the waste basket or torn up?
THE WITNESS: I am unable to give you too specific an answer. You remember I said there were two kinds. One was comments on somebody else’s memorandum in the making of the file, let’s say, of this German trade agreement. Those, as far as I know, would be continued with the file until the action had been taken, and then the file would be sent upstairs to the Division of Correspondence. I forget what it was called. And that division would then take the file to pieces, put into the permanent file such papers as would be
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kept, and destroy other. What they did with those memoranda, I am unable to say. This particular memoranda, however, under discussion are not that type. These are just a little digest, and I suppose these would go into the waste basket.
JUROR: Not be destroyed, just thrown away?
THE WITNESS: Be thrown away, I should suppose. Have I answered your question?
JUROR: Yes.
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BY MR. DONEGAN:
Q Referring to those notes, Mr. Sayre, in the handwriting, nobody else would have access to those notes, would they, in Mr. Hiss’s handwriting?
A Of course they may have gone into the waste basket, charwomen cleaning up, messengers.
Q Outside of the waste basket, and outside the charwomen, would anybody else in the State Department receive those notes?
A I shouldn’t think so.
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Q With references to the charwomen and the waste basket, you say the practice was to make digests. Were there any security measures with reference to those digests?
A Now that would be up to Mr. Hiss. As I say, I doubt whether I ever saw those digests. I should suppose that he made those for his own, to refresh his own recollection as he handed me a sheaf of telegrams about which I asked for his explanation.
Q The point I am trying to bring out, … since the digest logically would only refer to the important parts, was there any practice followed in our office, or any part of the State Department, as to security measures on the digests?
A I can’t answer the question. So far as I know it was Mr. Hiss himself, if he made those digests, who would be responsible for disposing of.
Q I state it for the purpose of the record, that it was in Mr. Hiss’s handwriting. Therefore you would say in reference to those digests you would have no knowledge as to any security measures taken concerning them?
A I wouldn’t know.
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Q I mean, how many are there [officials who got mimeographed copies of incoming cables]?
A I can’t answer that specifically. The department kept growing. I should think there must have been over 20 people in the Trade Agreements Division. It was headed by Mr. Harry Hopkins…. Henry Grady -
Q That answers my question, Mr. Sayre. There were over 20 people.
A To the best of my recollection.
Q With the exception of these data memoranda written in the handwriting of Mr. Alger Hiss, practically everything that comes into your office also goes to other Assistant Secretary, to the Under-Secretary and the Secretary, so there is hardly any paper there with the exception of those few that would be confined to just four people in your office?
A That is true, and I am not sure that there are any that would be confined to those four people because we would be talking with other divisions interested and concerned. I’d show that concerned divisions perhaps some, for their background information, some telegrams that had come in.
Q Do you know how many mimeographed copies were made of those and whether in the mimeograph room they could have been extracted?
A If they were extracted from my office I do not see why they couldn’t have been extracted from the mimeograph office. When you asked me how many, that depends on the character of the telegram. There were some telegrams so extremely confidential that they went to the Secretary’s office alone. There are telegrams, even though confidential,
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would go to each of the Assistant Secretaries and the Under-Secretary as well as to the Secretary’s office. Still others would be sent to all those whom I have mentioned and to each interested division, Division of Far Eastern Affairs, Division of Western European Affairs, Division of Trade Agreements and so forth and so on.
Q Would you mimeograph a form in more than 20 copies?
A No; such copies as were distributed were all mimeographed, if that’s what you mean.
Q That’s what I mean.
A They were circulated in mimeographed form and then the original would go to the division which had to take action. It was called the Action copy.
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BY JURORS:
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Q You have spoken about Mr. Hiss, and his intellect and capacity, at various times. Do you think a man of such responsibility would take a digest of a document and then throw it in the waste paper basket where it would be available to the charwomen?
A I should think now. But I am just speculating. Now I lived closely with Alger Hiss for what was it, three years? Yes, three years. During all that time I never saw the slightest inclination toward Red tendencies. I never saw him arguing in favor of a Russian attitude in any problem. I found a man who was outstandingly loyal. Apart from everything else, I just can’t believe that he would let me down that way. I have lived with him day in and day out and I just can’t believe it.
Q Something has come up in the grand jury room before. What would prompt Mr. Chambers, out of 140 million people in the United States, to pick out Mr. Hiss? I mean, you might have some opinion yourself? You are a high ranking officer. What would prompt him to pick him out of 140 million, this man? Have you an opinion on it at all?
A Only personal speculation. I can’t answer of my knowledge
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I can only suppose that Alger Hiss knew Chambers, from that I read in the newspapers, and that’s the only way I have heard of it. They were friends, or at least exchanged confidences, prior to the time when Alger Hiss came into the State Department. Now, if that be true, Chambers might have seized upon Alger Hiss feeling that would make a very dramatic story and utilizing those previous intimacies. I do not know. I am speculating.
BY MR. DONEGAN:
Q With reference to that, we were discussing before your conversation with Mr. Marbury, Mr. Hiss’s attorney. Did Mr. Marbury offer any suggestions as to why Mr. Chambers would select Mr. Hiss?
A I did not discuss it with him at all.
(WITNESS EXCUSED)